fuel system E85

[Kanotix]

Voila où j'en suis pour la toronado .J'ai un reservoir custom de 90L avec une sonde vdo et il a besoin de ses périphériques.

Le moteur développera environ 550 hp /600 torque.Le carbrateur sera un quick fuel Q-850-e85.

J'ai choisis uniquement des composants validés pour une utilisation à l'ethanol, donc durites/raccords PTFE.

 

 

Les composants :

 

Pompe : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-150

150 GPH ,16 psi max .Cette pompe inclue un régulateur sans return-line.

 

Relay :http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-890023

Safety switch :http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-810

 

Pre-filtre : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-162-564

175 GPH ,100 microns

 

Filtre :http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-162-555

175 gph ,40 microns

 

Regulateur :http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-845

4.5->9psi , ligne de retour

 

Durites : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aer-fcc0810 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aer-fcc0606

PTFE

 

Ça vous parait cohérent ? Je suis ouvert à toutes remarques of course.

 

 

[Vachfolle]

C'est tout bon !

 

Par contre pour les filtres je monte du 40µm en amont et 10µm en aval.

100µm c'est plus pour du fuel/rallye en Afrique.

[Moriss]

Et pour un moteur "normal" l'adaptation est la même ?

[Vachfolle]

Oui, exactement pareil, possibilité de prendre une pompe avec moins de débit, mais, mieux, prendre un régulateur avec sortie retour réservoir et faire une ligne de retour.

[Pit]

Oui, exactement pareil, possibilité de prendre une pompe avec moins de débit, mais, mieux, prendre un régulateur avec sortie retour réservoir et faire une ligne de retour.

 

Moi je vois une ligne de retour...

 

[Vachfolle]

J'ai mixé dans mes boyaux de la tête avec le montage de la Fox de Cuda.

[Kanotix]

Ok merci vachefolle ,je pensais qu'un pre-filtre plus fin pouvait réduire le débit ou endommager la pompe.

Je retourne faire mon marché chez summit alors

[Eagle1_77]

Pompe : http://www.summitrac...arts/hly-12-150

150 GPH ,16 psi max .Cette pompe inclue un régulateur sans return-line.

 

Alors pourquoi tu as mis en place un retour ?

[Kanotix]

justement pour éviter le vapor lock, en faite le régulateur fournis avec la pompe est un module séparé a 30$ environ (et non compatible ethanol) .

 

[Eagle1_77]

ok

[Kanotix]

Et hop si ça intéresse quelqu'un :

 

 

 

How To Correctly Set Up Your Fuel System

A fuel system is just that - a SYSTEM. All the pieces of your fuel delivery system must work together. The current trend is to run a pump that is much bigger than should be required to compensate for deficiencies within the system. Simply buying and installing the biggest pump you can find will not be enough if the rest of the system is poorly thought out or sloppily implemented. The same can be true buying a pump based upon price, or by what you think is enough fuel pump. Either deficiency can easily drain the wallet if you run out of fuel and start damaging engine parts ... not to mention losing races!

This article will focus on electric fuel pumps. Mechanical fuel pumps are not worth the effort unless you are mandated by the rules of your class (as in many circle track applications) to run one. You can use the same basic knowledge with your mechanical fuel pump in regards to the requirements and fuel regulator choices.

Fuel pumps are generally rated in gallons per hour (or GPH). Mallory, for example, offers pumps rated at 70, 110, 140, and 250 GPH. All of the Mallory pumps are of gerotor type which makes them quieter and more efficient than many rotary, vane style pumps. The most efficient electric fule pumps we have used are actually the Weldon Fuel Pumps, and at a considerably higher price tag. No matter the pump you use, it is mandatory that a fuel filter be installed between the fuel cell (or tank) and the pump. The tighter clearances of the gerotor-style pump also makes it is less tolerant of any garbage that may find its way into it. ALWAYS run a filter before the pump! You should also have a filter just before your carburetor or injector rail as well. Other brand pumps offer various flow ratings, and output. It is a good idea to review all data provided on the pump to make sure you are actually purchasing a unit that meets your demands. One of the highest quality and most powerful pumps available are those from Weldon. Weldon provides detailed and accurate data on each of their fuel pumps.

A typical engine uses 0.5 pounds of fuel (gasoline) per hour to make each horsepower. Gasoline weighs in at approximately 6 pounds per gallon. To calculate fuel consumption let me show you by example. Let's say we have a 400 HP engine (or nitrous system). We will use the following formula to calculate "free flow" fuel requirements:



If you install a fuel pump rated at 33 GPH on a 400 HP engine (or 400 HP nitrous system), your engine would experience severe fuel starvation and your wallet would cringe in "empty" pain! WHY?

There are several reasons. However, the main reason is the way that pumps are rated. Fuel pumps are rated at "zero" pressure (also known as "free flow"). Rating a pump at zero pressure is useless because the pump will never be at zero pressure when it is operating in the vehicle. As fuel pressure increases, the fuel pump slows down and fuel output is reduced. If you use a standard "dead-head" type regulator, the pump may be forced to produce as much as 25 PSI. At 25 PSI the actual output GPH of the pump is considerably less than at "free flow".



All of this makes choosing a pump size difficult. You may use the following as a fuel pump "rule of thumb". Additionally, it is a good idea to give your system a bit of safety cushion.

I always run (and advise others to use) a pump just a bit larger than what my engine needs - just for insurance.

For Dead-Head type regulators:

Multiply maximum horsepower by .23 to calculate minimum pump size in "free flow" GPH.
Example: 400 HP x .23 = 91 GPH "free flow"

For Return-Style regulators:

Multiply maximum horsepower by .17 to calculate minimum pump size in "free flow" GPH.
Example: 400 HP x .17 = 68 GPH "free flow"

These minimum pump sizes assume that the fuel system is equipped with fuel lines of adequate size. If the fuel lines are too small (or if there are a lot of restrictive fittings in the system) a larger pump may be required to satisfy the fuel demand of the engine. The minimum fuel line size (from the pump to the regulator) is dependent on the horsepower output of the engine (and/or Nitrous system) regardless of the size of the pump.

Use these figures as a fuel line sizing standard:

• Up to 250 HP = 5/16" or -04 AN
• Up to 375 HP = 3/8" or -06 AN
• Up to 700 HP = 1/2" or -08 AN
• Up to 1000 HP = 5/8" or -10 AN
• Up to 1500 HP = 3/4" or -12 AN

If you use a return-style regulator, you will also need a return line from the regulator back to the tank. The size of the return line is dependent on the size of the pump you are using, regardless of the engine's horsepower output. The return line must have limited or NO pressure in it. In most cases, the minimum return line size will match that of the supply line, but a larger return line is sometimes preferred. You definitely want less pressure in the return line than the supply side line(s).
Use these basic ratings to decide your return line sizing based upon fuel pump output:

• Up to 45 GPH = 5/16" or -04 AN
• Up to 90 GPH = 3/8" or -06 AN
• Up to 250 GPH = 1/2" or -08 AN
• Up to 450 GPH = 5/8" or -10 AN
• Up to 900 GPH = 3/4"or -12 AN

Mounting the fuel pump takes thought as well. You MUST mount the fuel pump as low as possible and as close to the fuel cell (or tank) as possible as well. DO NOT ever mount a Mallory or other gravity-fed fuel pump above the fuel tank or cell!

NOTE: We are often asked about the mounting angle of the fuel pump. The question typically asked is if the pump must be mounted upright. Take it this way, if the seals in the pump happen to fail, would you want fuel leaking into an electric motor or simply onto the ground? Well if you like fires ... {sarcasm}

Mount the fuel pressure regulator as close to the engine as possible is best for most applications. DO NOT use restrictive fittings, especially sharp 90º or "T" fittings. If you must use a 90º or "T" fitting, use the tube style fittings from Earl's, Russell, Goodridge, and others. See Below



The GOOD and the BAD



Of course the fitting at above is what you want. The restriction of the fittings below can be hazardous to your race engine and affect your consistency to win races. The image above is an example of a typical full-flow fuel fitting, while the image below is a very restrictive brass fitting.



The restrictions caused by improper plumbing of your fuel system can cause adverse and costly affects. Years ago race teams copied technology from the aerospace industry (as they often do) in the use of both stainless steel braided fuel lines and AN (Army-Navy) fittings, including full-flow screw together hose ends and adapters that drastically reduced common fuel line restrictions. Removing fuel flow restrictions and liquid turbulence has provided the ability to use smaller, lighter, and more efficient fuel pumps. Now, using these modern fittings, racing engines made more horsepower throughout the RPM range, were more consistent, and lasted longer. The braided lines resisted wear and compression, and the hose ends reduced turbulence, while providing added safety, and ease of installation and removal. The AN hose ends and adapters are manufactured to provide bends and connections that were previously a plumbing nightmare.



Regulators and the Benefits of Return-Style Systems:

One of the biggest restrictions in most modern fuel systems is the "dead-head' regulator. Dead-head regulators are popular because of their simplicity and you do not need to install a return line. However, they are not only more restrictive but also create several other problems that can be eliminated with a return-style regulator. Dead-head regulators often have a higher failure rate than return-style regulators.

Mallory, Weldon, and other fuel component manufacturers offer both dead-head and return-style regulators. You will base your regulator choice upon system demands and racing class requirements. Dead-head regulators regulate pressure by starting and stopping flow. Return regulators regulate pressure by sending excess fuel back to the tank or fuel cell in a continuous cycle. If you are confused about your regulator choice, think of this simple analogy of a dead-head regulator's operation:

Do you remember as a child, running around the house chasing a sibling or a friend? What happened when you chased them into a room and they tried to close you out, but did not quite get the door closed? They are pushing, you are pushing, the door is only open a few inches. Suddenly, the person on the other side of the door lets go and moves out of the way. Do you remember stumbling across the floor trying to catch your balance and not destroy furniture or land on your face? A dead-head regulator is similarly doing the same thing, with the fuel being the object pushing, and the regulator holding the door and then periodically jumping out of the way.

Because a dead-head regulator starts and stops flow, fuel pressure between the pump at regulator is higher than the pressure between the regulator and the carb. This is different on injected applications, where the regulator is positioned after the fuel rail so that the injectors see maximum pressure and flow. However, if the pressure gets too high, it is possible to damage the fuel pump or other components. Therefore, the pressure coming out of the pump is limited in many pump designs by a device built into the pump called a bypass. Low pressure pumps are limited to less than 9 PSI and should not be used with dead-head regulators. High pressure pumps for carbureted applications are limited to a pressure of between 10 and 25 PSI.

Not only can the fuel pump being used with dead-head regulator fail because of pressure issues, but pumps on a dead-head regulator system also run hotter, and do not last as long as those connected to to a return-style system. The moving fuel of a returnsytle system actually helps to cool the pump. Pounding the fuel against a closed or restricted regulator creates more heat and work for the fuel pump. Fuel pumps working against a dead-head regulator will also be louder during low RPM operation.

The Mallory 70 and 110 pumps are low pressure pumps that can be used without a regulator for the street, or with a dead-head regulator for racing. Mallory 140 and 250 series pumps are high pressure and high volume, and must be used with some sort of pressure regulator (dead-head or return-style).

Even if the bypass in the pump is working correctly, it is still possible to have a pressure drop with a dead-head regulator, including use with an over-sized pump for the application. See the image below:



Let's say that at idle, gauge #1 will read 10 PSI and gauge #2 will read 8 PSI. At full throttle, the increase in fuel flow will create a pressure drop between the pump and the regulator. The amount of pressure drop depends on the restriction in the fuel line - a 4 PSI drop is not uncommon. Gauge #1 will now read 6 PSI and because a dead-head regulator cannot raise the pressure, gauge #2 will also now read at 6 PSI. The result is a 2 PSI pressure drop at the carburetor or Nitrous solenoids even though a very large pump may be in use.

NOTE: When using a dead-head regulator, a good precaution is to install a second gauge just before the regulator. This will allow you to check that the pressure before the regulator stays higher than the set pressure.

Many race-designed fuel pumps have the bypass set very high (14-25 PSI) to avoid this problem. However, this creates another problem. The higher bypass pressure makes the pump work harder and draw more amperage. In fact, the pump is working just as hard at idle as it does at full throttle down the track! This is one of the main causes of early pump failure. To counteract this problem of high amperage draw, some companies manufacture voltage reducers for street cars to slow the pump down and increase the life of the pump. The problem here is that reducing the voltage can also have a negative affect on many pump motor designs.



WHY Should You Use A Return-Style Regulator?

There is a profound point to be made when I (or your engine builder, carb builder, or fuel pump manufacturer) tell you to run ONLY a return-style system on your vehicles.

• You can avoid problematic headaches (especially when the pump dies just before a final-round elimination and you do not have enough time on your hot-lap, or for that matter a spare pump, to fix it in time to race ... Loss By Default!) by running a return-style (or bypass) regulator.
• The bypass in the pump is plugged or disabled when you run a return-style regulator so there is no chance of it failing.
• The pressure just before and after the pump is always the same so there is no need for two gauges.
• The return regulator has complete control over the pump pressure and will automatically compensate for pressure drop in the fuel line.

See Explanation Below:

If there is s 2 PSI pressure drop between the pump and the regulator, the return-style regulator will force the pump to produce 10 PSI. If there is s 4 PSI drop, the pump will be forced to produce 12 PSI. In either case, the pressure at the regulator will remain at 8 PSI (or whatever you set it at). The pump will also live longer since it is only producing 10-12 PSI instead of 14-25 PSI. This means that a voltage reducer is not needed, even on a street car.

IMPORTANT: Fuel pressure regulators suffer from a situation called "recovery time". Recovery time is explained as the amount of time it takes the regulator to react to changes such as a sudden increase in fuel demand (as when you jump on the throttle or hit the Nitrous button). Return regulators react much quicker for several reasons. Return regulators allow the fuel to flow straight through without making a 90° turn. With a return regulator the fuel doesn't have to make its way around the plunger like it does inside a dead-head regulator. Just before you jump on the throttle (or hit the nitrous button), the fuel in a dead-head system is barely moving. In a return system, the fuel is constantly moving, cycling from the rear of the car to the front and back again. This means that the fuel already has momentum, which reduces recovery time. This movement of the fuel also keeps the pump cooler and reduces the chances of vapor lock (for those of us who live in high heat areas of the country) .

"We never race at any hot or humid tracks in the heat of summer, do we?"

Dead-head regulators can also cause "creep" which means the fuel pressure tends to slowly increase. Return regulators cannot creep if setup properly and using the correct size return line.



Adjustments:

ALL fuel pressure regulators can only be adjusted accurately when the fuel is flowing through them. Therefore, on dead-head regulated systems the engine must be running to adjust the pressure accurately at the carburetor or injectors. The same is true for a Nitrous system. Do you want to make a "guess" that the system is set properly the first time to hit the button on your engine? Adjusting the regulator while the nitrous system is on would be borderline insane! Return regulators can be adjusted with or without the engine or nitrous system operating. Turn on the pump and set the pressure! Simple as that.

The one thing that can make the return system operate poorly is too much restriction in the return line. To determine the restriction in the return line, turn the pump on (with the engine or Nitrous off) and back the adjustment screw out to ts lowest pressure point. Now check the pressure gauge. You should have less than 3 PSI showing on the gauge (the lower the pressure the better). If you have more than 3 PSI you must reduce the restriction in the return line. This in many cases entails free-flow fittings at the least, and in many cases requires a larger diameter return line.

Any successful nitrous user knows that nitrous systems are very sensitive to fuel pressure fluctuations. It is highly recommended that you run two independent fuel systems when using Nitrous (preferably with return-style regulators). Two small systems with small pumps, fuel lines and regulators are usually cheaper than one large system anyway. If you must use one large system (with dead-head regulators), use two dead-head regulators installed in parallel, not in series. NEVER use two regulators series in a system with a return-style regulator, other than the first example below! Any fuel system with a return regulator must have only one regulator (per system).

Fuel System Designs:

BEST Drag Race System --- (return style regulator (or adjustable pressure-based bypass), plus a dead-head regulator ... weight savings, and efficiency)





BEST Drag Race NITROUS System --- (two independent systems, return regulator/pressure bypass at pump, one dead-head regulator for solenoids, one for carburetor)





BEST Street/Strip System --- (two independent systems; return regulators preferred)





An OK System --- (one large system with two dead-head regulators in parallel)





POOR System --- (one large system with two regulators in series "not recommended" and you will likely break something expensive!)
back to top

 

source : http://www.centuryperformance.com/forum/showthread.php/55-Fuelish-Tendencies

[Eagle1_77]

Très intéressant merci kanotix

C est le premier schéma tout en haut qui a été installé à l époque sur la mustang.

[Vachfolle]

Rien que du très logique en somme, ce que l'on fait juste avec un peu de réflexion.

C'est bien de l'avoir compilé !

[gégétoy]

Très intéressant merci kanotix

C est le premier schéma tout en haut qui a été installé à l époque sur la mustang.

Et tes conclusion , bien ou pas ?

 

Je compte faire l'installation sur un ford avec un 351 de 1978.

[Eagle1_77]

Zut j'avais pas vu ta question

Conclusion ? Et bien vu les problèmes de fonctionnement moteur de Cuda à Clastres, je considère que cette installation est mauvaise.

 

Il faut revoir le branchement complet et je partirai sur le schéma Optimum Drag Race system

[gégétoy]

OK. Merci. je vais cogite ça

 

Kanotix, tiens nous au courant quand tu aura fini.

 

Merciiiii

[Kanotix]

Je profite du post de cuda pour poster la suite de ce projet :

 

Reservoir : 90L alu, réservoir de course cloisonné, je ne met pas de mousse avec l'ethanol.

 

 

 

Une entrée/sortie en dash 10, une jauge réservoir tubulaire, une mise à l'air anti-renversement.

 

Ensuite cela part sur un filtre aeromotive 100ù (http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aei-12304/overview/)

 

 

Et une pompe quick fuel 30-230 (http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/qft-30-230/overview/) avec le safety switch (http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hly-12-810/overview/)

 

 

 

[Kanotix]

Ensuite donc ça rentre en 10AN dans la pompe et ça ressort en 8AN vers la ligne en #8 (je n'ai pas de photos j'ai oublié). (http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/rus-639270/overview/)

 

 

et ça ressort dans le compartiment moteur vers le filtre 40ù 5http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hly-162-555/overview/-

 

 

Ça part sur la fuel line en noir (http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ear-at101286erl/overview/)

 

 

Et le retour se fait par le régulateur de pression

 

 

La ligne de retour est en 10AN jusqu'au reservoir.

 

Les durites sont en PTFE avec les bons raccords, c'est surement ce qui coûte le plus chère au final.

 

 

 

Je n'ai pas finis le montage ce sera pour mes prochains congés , c'est un projet qui s’éternise faute de temps.

[Pit]

C'est beau!

 

Je ne comprend juste pas le Safety switch sur la ligne de carburant. C'est un capteur de pression d'huile. Tu l'utilises pour couper la pompe en cas de baisse de pression de carburant?

 

[Kanotix]

Oh le con merci pit !!!

c'est un montage à blanc j'ai fait ça a la va vite pour calculer les longueurs des durites .

comme quoi j'ai bien fait de poster ces photos !!

[Eagle1_77]

Mumm ca sent bon

 

[Kanotix]

oui je vais bientôt pouvoir poser tes stickers depuis le temps qu'ils sèchent sur mon étagère !!

En tout cas au top la remarque pit, a vouloir tout faire rapidement on fait des erreurs grotesques

[Eagle1_77]

Et du coup ? c'est pour quand la premiere sortie ?

[Pit]

Pas de quoi...

 

On t'attend à Clastres...

 

[Kanotix]

tout dépendra du boulot , j'ai tout reçu il me manque plus que quelques raccords car fragola m'a envoyé des olives mal usinées pleines de copeaux mais c'est du détails ça , j'ai eu de gros soucis à la réception du moteur, le livreur l'a renversé je n'en parle pas à cause des dossiers d'assurance en cours mais j’espère pouvoir la faire tourner au printemps,je peux bosser dessus en moyenne quatre jours tous les deux mois c'est peu .Septembre serait parfait si mon travail me libère , j'en meurs d'envie, même avec un projet pas totalement aboutis j'ai envie de voire ce qu'elle a dans les boyaux